The Future of Canadian Curling

Kyle Jahns (00:05)
Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. This is episode number four of the Future of Canadian Curling podcast, and we are talking the four critical shifts today.

In previous chapters, we had talked about why curling matters and the conditions of the sport that it's operating in today, but from this chapter forward, we're actually gonna start talking about what we do with that information.

So once again I'm here with Nolan Thiessen, Curling Canada CEO. And in the latest chapter, Nolan you discussed talking about um traveling around the country and you you hear people talking about the same things. They want healthier clubs, they want to have more people curling, they want their facilities to be stronger, financially sustainable, and they want to see Canadian teams winning medals on an international stage. So

You've kind of come to a conclusion or kind of realized through those conversations, everybody wants the same thing. These aren't controversial goals, but yet there's maybe different ways on on how we reach them.

Nolan Thiessen (01:07)
Yeah, you know, it it's interesting because you go out there and and when you're talking to people, as I said as you were kind of alluding to there, you hear themes, right? We want clubs to be full, we want the sheets to be in use, we want to modernize facilities, we're competitive, we want to win internationally, and and you just hear it in the system that everybody

kinda wants the same goals, right? They they want like especially everyone who works in the sport, everyone who contributes to the sport, volunteers, it's be it's from a place of passion, right? It's a you people people are in sport because of passion often. but then as I was thinking about it, I was looking at it going, but how do we kind of align that passion towards a similar

Just a similar North Star and or you know, just understanding what we're truly trying to do, right? you know, everybody wants to win medals internationally, but does that mean is it how we actually train the athletes on a day-to-day environment, or is it like how do we structure the Brier and the Scotties? you know, people want healthy clubs.

It but but what does that mean, right? That does that mean how how do you get there? what are we actually selling? so I think that's what has led to this and and it's kind of it's trying to take some of the ideas that are out there, getting people behind sort of a shared vision and a shared understanding of what success actually looks like. I think is is sort of important and

I mean, w that being said, it's not like everyone's gonna do everything exactly the same, right? But if people are having the right conversations and thinking about things in the right way, then then we're we're kind of better off in the long run. And I I've said this a lot about our sport. I mean, the future of sport commission for the whole sports system in Canada talked about how Canadians want

grassroots to podium, right? Just in general, Canadians value community sport, but you know, we have some pride. We want we want to win internationally and and our sport is one with expectations. So I I I love that in that we we get the opportunity to do all of that in curling. We get to be sport for life. We get to be the one of the true, you know, grassroots all the way to podium sports. But that being said, it's

We gotta think about things just a little bit differently and maybe just frame th frame the conversation in the right way on a go forward basis.

Kyle Jahns (03:48)
So to build on that a little bit more, like we agree on the destination, but ultimately if to become aligned, it kinda insinuates that we have all been seeing things differently regarding what that that route is. Why do you think we as a system have had kind of difficulty agreeing on what that route is going forward?

Nolan Thiessen (04:10)
Well, I think just in a lot of areas we we probably concentrate on how we're delivering as opposed to sort of what we're delivering. I think there's a lot of conversation about you know, you look at it from a grassroots level and and there's there's conversation at the clubs about, you know, how do we either how do we just keep curling as cheap as possible or how do we just provide

Mixed doubles is a great opportunity. Let's provide a mixed doubles leak or or whatever. And just kind of hoping that as long as we're providing curling, people will come to it, as opposed to thinking about it in that curling is sort of the delivery mechanism for exceptional experiences and memorable experiences. And and that's grassroots all the way to podium. but it's that's that's actually what we're selling as a sport. We're not

You know, we're we're not just sliding the rock up and down the ice, we're selling experiences and community.

And being able to like think just think of that in a different way, I think, improves the planning and the execution in the future.

Kyle Jahns (05:21)
So ultimately it's about finding ways, I think, to better make those decisions that advance a sport collectively in the end. And advancing the sport collectively is done through something you describe as the three legged stool, people, systems, and facilities. So can you introduce that that framework?

to us and how this becomes the foundation of all the four shifts that we're going to be discussing and kind of providing an overview in this episode and then talking about in the weeks to come.

Nolan Thiessen (05:52)
Yeah, you know, from when when we had these conversations at with all of our member associations over the last couple of years, it kept coming back to these three themes and everybody sort of I think I think if you talk to different people, they may value each of them a little bit differently. But ta having that understanding of all three of them are sort of a actual they all need to sort of be strong and you can't

concentrate on one over the other. you know, people, you need people to play the game, but you also need people to administer the game, people to market the game. You know, you need, you know, you need people that have a passion for the sport and and are able to deliver it. you need facilities. We are one of the sports where we

All of our facilities are really curling specific, right? There I I know outside of Canada there's you know, there's temporary curling in a lot of places and and there is a few of those in Canada, but in general, most of our facilities in Canada are dedicated curling facilities and and then they do something else in the summer. but that's unique to us. So we need those to be strong and and I

I've jokingly said one of the best things about curling is that it's been around for a hundred or two hundred years in Canada. One of the worst things is one of our one of our struggles is that it's been around for a hundred or two hundred years. So the clubs need, you know, often a lot of them need a bit of an an upgrade or a facelift, right? and but then how do you do that? You need systems, right? Curling Canada can't do this on our own. None of our member associations can do it on our own. The club can't do it on its own.

But I know I bring it back to the future of sport commission report, but they talked about a fragmented system, right? A fragmented sports system creates confusion, duplication, things missing. And for that's so it's really important for me as a part of this to try to find a way both from a governance and an operational spec perspective for everyone to be aligned, at least behind the same goals.

And then that's where that's where a system starts to thrive, I think.

Kyle Jahns (08:05)
So you're saying essentially, and this is something we talked about in the past last week. you know, curling clubs and curling facilities, they measure their success by participation numbers, budgets, number of people in play downs, com competitions, or competitive results alone. Whereas I think the new shift is now focusing on those three core concepts of how does it help people, how does it improve systems and and facilities. So, I mean

It's a very you know, a significant you propose that every significant decision should answer those three questions. how would you use those questions, I guess, to evaluate a real life decision in regards to how it improves systems, strengthen the places where curling happens, and make those people more capable?

Nolan Thiessen (08:49)
Well, I mean I'll I'll bring up the example of the Association of Curling Professionals program at at Curling Canada. You know, it's it's not a replacement for the NCCP and and coaching training, but it's it it's more in the vein of people who are gonna professionally run clubs. So you look at like take facilities, right? Someone would say, Well, what can Curling Canada do for s facilities? Well, we don't have

The funding to do building upgrades for 850 facilities in this country. So, what could we do? Well, we could coach up enough people in the system that are gonna go into those facilities and run them professionally and have a long-term vision, right? That so us investing in that program is kind of investing in all three areas because it's creating a consistent

class of of professionals who can be out there to teach the game better, to run facilities better, it it will help facilities because they're running them more professionally. They have a longer term vision for them. They're not just solving the problems of of today, you know, the house is on fire type of thing. But then it's it's aligned because those people can work anywhere.

Right. They it's a it's a system thing as well, in that we have we have people who can go anywhere in the country and are professionally trained and deliver our sport in a better in a better way, right? So that's how that's just like one decision that is framed around it's actually from a curling Canada lens, our way that we can help support all three of those areas. And I think

That's where that's the type of thinking, you know. I think you see it in in in a lot of the stuff that goes out. The goal of this series is to think differently. And that's the type of thinking that we want people to have. We don't want, you know, from a current candidate perspective, it would be easy to say, well, we can't we can't do anything with the facilities because we don't have enough money to do it. So boom, okay, that one's done. Let's just go concentrate on these. But no, could we do something that actually supports all three areas?

Kyle Jahns (11:05)
Yeah, and for those who are not familiar with the Association of Curling Professionals, look it up online because it's a a rather new program, but one that I as you've mentioned is super important to the growth of curling facilities all around Canada in training people to not only be like a club pro, similar to a golf pro that you would see at a at a golf club, but find what so they can provide lessons, instructions, that type of thing, but also how to operate.

A curling club as a business to be able to learn. So please, if you haven't heard of it, like go check that out online, the Association of Curling Professionals. And it just adds to such a good point, Nolan, because I think in the past, maybe through maybe even some like club funding grants and stuff, like a club can receive money through a grant to maybe renovate the facility, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has the volunteers or the operating resources to sustain it in the long term. Like it doesn't actually quite solve

The problem.

Nolan Thiessen (12:03)
Yeah, and it's you know, it's looking ahead, going, okay, I mean, we run a facility. The facility will need upgrades. We don't need upgrades today, but we need to plan for those upgrades ten years from now. Right? So what do we need to do to do that? Okay, well, we need to have a ten dollar facility fee on on our on our fees. We need to explain that to our members so they understand what we're doing. I mean, they all

members in general, they want they want the sport to be healthy and successful. Them putting in ten dollars so that facility in ten years can get a new ice plant or a new floor or or, you know, upgrade their kitchen or upgrade their their lounge or, you know, redo the locker rooms. Like it's providing a better experience for everybody, but it's it's forward planning as opposed to, my goodness, I think our plant is about to die. What do we do? We don't have we c we can't fix this.

Kyle Jahns (12:58)
So let's get into these four critical shifts. And I think it's important to note that these aren't these aren't four projects. These aren't four strategic priorities. They're they're shifts in thinking. Why, first of all, why is that distinction important?

Nolan Thiessen (13:12)
Well, because it as I've said from the start, I don't think that this series is is meant to be, well, here's a list of answers. because you know, I think things things change, society changes. We talked about that earlier in the series, how you know, just Canada has changed a little bit. It will change in the future. So, but that being said, if we think a little bit differently, then we can solve all those problems a little bit better.

And and it it goes back to the point that I was kind of making at the start where I was, you know, talking about how we're act to actually solve the problem you actually have to know what your what your problem is, right? And our you know, I I y you talk about grassroots. I mean, I was just talking about the val or planning.

for potential facility upgrades in the future, right? Through value proposition. You talk about high performance. We weren't starting to s to win less medals internationally because of a format. We were starting to win less medals because we weren't doing the right things from a training perspective. so that's those are the types of sort of mentality changes that I think

If we have more people in the system thinking in this way, we're gonna be way, way, way more successful.

Kyle Jahns (14:37)
So shift number one, grassroots development. we're talking about going from being an affordable sport to a valuable sport. we long have evalued affordability, as you mentioned in in this latest chapter, and that accessibility has to remain important, you note, but ultimately people return because they improve, they make friends, they feel welcome.

So affordability is one of those strengths, but why isn't that enough on its own to ensure that the resp that the sport remains sustainable?

Nolan Thiessen (15:10)
Well, I mean, I think affordability can get people in the door. Affordability doesn't keep people because if if all your sport is is affordable, then as soon as something comes in that is a little bit cheaper or a more affordable, then you're giving them sort of the mental permission to go try that instead 'cause 'cause you're saying all we are is this. All we are is a cheap thing to do, right? As opposed to

We're a valuable thing to do. And and not even comparing it to other sports. You know, you look at curling and from a grassroots perspective, you're competing with for people's discretionary income and people's time, right? So, you know, everyone's money and time is valuable. So we have to provide value for them to want to consume our sport as opposed to just saying, come do it. It's cheap. Well, maybe I don't have time to do it.

But I'll make time to do something if I think that it provides value to my life. And that's, you know, thinking that the only thing that our sport could ever be is cheap for people. Like that's the only reason that someone curls is because it's cheap. is is just not valuing what we actually are and what we've actually been for the last almost two hundred years in this country.

Kyle Jahns (16:27)
When I think of like what I paid for a curling membership in rural Manitoba where I grew up compared to where I am now in Ottawa. I was honestly the first time that I I moved to Ottawa about five years ago and I was shocked at the price that I was paying because it was way more than what I had ever experienced in my life. But

Even though it was more expensive, I still paid because I want that um I want that experience, I want that connection, I want that community, but I was also positive that and felt good because those funds were contributing to a club or a facility to find ways to put on programs and just create a better overall experience. And I think that's one thing that curling clubs struggle with maybe is

Trying to charge more, but then understanding that those extra assets can be put back into the club for those better experiences.

Nolan Thiessen (17:27)
Right. And and think of all of the experiences in life outside of sport even that that you're like anybody is willing to pay for. I mean, I I took my son to Disneyland this year, right? Like Disneyland is not cheap and it's never meant to be cheap. Am I gonna go to Disneyland every single year? No, I'm that's not me, but and and but it was a memorable experience, right? That's what they provide. They they say, look, like

It's gonna be a little bit expensive, or it's maybe a one-off for for 99% of society. But we're gonna when you walk through here, you're gonna feel like I got my money's worth. That that was valuable. I had an experience that I am going to remember forever, right? And I and I think from I think there's a ton of people in the curling world who are members of clubs who

their curling experience is something they will remember the rest of their life, right? It it's not because it was a cheap membership, so I kept doing it every year. It was because I felt value in that experience, right? And and I think that just that mental shift, right? And it and again, I'm I'm not talking to clubs or curling Canada and starting to say, spike your membership fees, like we need to be

You know, we need to be a sport of kings, right? Like that's you know, it's not it's that's not what I'm talking about. What what I'm talking about is saying understanding that, you know, we're not competing just on affordability. We're competing on experience.

Kyle Jahns (19:06)
Is there anything else about the general grassroots affordability conversation that you would want to add?

Nolan Thiessen (19:13)
Well, I think from a from a grassroots perspective, it's you know that there's four critical shifts in here. I think from just an internal curling perspective. That shift of you notice that we have a grassroots shift and we have a high performance shift, right? 'Cause they're two separate conversations. We don't just say as long as we look after high performance, grassroots will look after itself. We're saying grassroots

is a separate conversation and this is what we need to do in here to sort of compete and and and provide provide our sport and our experience and our community to to more people in Canada, not just saying if we concentrate on this one, this one will look after itself. Right. I think that's the distinction.

Kyle Jahns (19:55)
And that kind of leads us into exactly that that other end of

The spectrum. It's high performance development. So now I think there's a bit of a distinction that, like, as you mentioned, Canadian curling, you were part of that era. You could rely on the depth of talent from the competitive system. The cream rises to the top, as Macho Man Randy Savage

would say.

Nolan Thiessen (20:18)
Yeah.

Kyle Jahns (20:20)
I had to get that in.

Nolan Thiessen (20:22)
I love it. I love it.

Kyle Jahns (20:24)
so

Tell me a little bit more about what do you think's changed in the in the competitive atmosphere that has made you kind of question whether this deep pool of talent is able to just sustain itself at the highest level of sport.

Nolan Thiessen (20:39)
Well, I mean the deep pool of talent I think is still there. The deep pool of talent that, you know, wants to compete and wants to win is still there in Canada. But

Wanting to be successful and being successful are two completely different conversations, right? A lot of people want to win. Is everybody willing to put in what is necessary? And what is necessary is not you know, it's easy to look at a team like, you know, Jacobs and Homan and sit there and go, well they've got they've got all the the resources and they've got all the like that's why they win. No, I mean

Have you seen the training that they do? Have you right? You know, I there's a there's a comment in the chapter from from Muhammad Ali, right? His his quote of I win fights long like in the darkness long before I ever get in the ring, right? His training and everything that he does w was what set him up to be the best the greatest of all time in the ring.

And and for us, I think it's that we probably o we overcompete in the sport. I was I was on a call recently with with a bunch of leaders across the country in our podium pathway, and and there's still people saying, Look, we've got teams that are playing six weekends in a row, right? And not never taking the time to actually train and be technically proficient and technically excellent.

You need to have discipline. You need to do the right things almost every day to put yourself in a position to actually win at the highest level, right? You don't it doesn't just happen at the end. There's a ton of work that goes into it. But the thing is, is that you can appreciate that work. That journey is what makes it so special when you actually win. Right. And and I think the critical shift in in Canada though.

you know, is to change that mentality of if I just curl more, by just playing more spiels, I will naturally get better to saying, okay, what my end goal is this. What do I need to do for all of these steps in between? Right? Do I need to be technically excellent? I need physical. I need mental health. you know I I I'm I need to eat right. I need to

There's there's so many things that you need to do to be successful.

And then the the results will look after themselves, right? Being process oriented instead of outcome oriented is is sort of that that shift in mentality, right? I'd I'd love to see teams play, I'd love to see more teams, even even youth teams, sitting there and saying, you know, I'm gonna play 12 spiels and we're gonna have five dedicated training weekends as opposed to I'm gonna play 17

spiels this year.

Kyle Jahns (23:34)
Mm-hmm.

Nolan Thiessen (23:34)
Right. That's that that's actual growth.

I mean, look at look at us. We we've changed our our high performance, our n our national national next gen and national team program to being to having an element of subjectivity to it, right? Past results are the one of the best indicators of future results. So it's not as though results don't matter, but we're like Dave and his whole team is asking the question, okay, what what are you doing? How are you what is your goal?

for the year. What are you what are you willing to do as a team? Okay, we're willing to invest in that. We're willing to support that. We're gonna get in the weeds with you and actually help you, right? As opposed to just saying, okay, here's the top five CTRS teams therefore they get they get they get funding and they're our teams. so it's it's a delicate balance. It always is. And as an athlete you love to compete, right? There's there's that competitive aspect of you wanna just

You wanna get in there and get in the fight a little bit. but understanding that the journey is is as important as anything.

Kyle Jahns (24:40)
And it's something that we'll touch on in the future, but there as you mentioned with the national team program, there are now Curling Canada's working with member associations across the country to introduce regional training performance centers, which are dedicated f I wouldn't say dedicated facilities, but within lum c curling facilities across Canada with ice that's dedicated to these individuals. Can you talk about that importance in the training?

Nolan Thiessen (25:06)
Yeah, dedicated resources specifically for high performance, right? Like, so yeah, it's y you look at our country, it's a gigantic footprint, right? And from a curling Canada perspective, it's not like we can sit there and go, okay, we just gonna have one national training center and it'll be this beacon that just everybody who wants to be in high performance is going to come there. That that's not a plausible model for us, right? We need

We need more f more resources and more areas of the country s for people that want to go on the high performance journey, right? And that means coaching and that means analytics and that means you know, proper ice conditions and and all of those things. So that's what the regional training center model is built out of. And and it's funny, we started it in ma in Manitoba. The first year was in Winnipeg. We expanded it last year and and this year, you know, we've got

We've got facilities calling Dave and being like, How can we make sure that we're a part of this? Right. Because we want to provide these resources for our athletes. And and the best part about that model is that it's not just the national team program, right? It's not just the top five men's and women's and mixed doubles teams. it's not just the the 10 team the 10 athletes on the the national wheelchair program. It's it's a

place where sure all of those athletes can go and train, but then the that layer below that are just in that in that community, somebody who wants to strive to get on that stage, has the proper resources and and can see what everybody else is doing, right? How valuable is it to have some athlete who's, you know, wanting to go on that journey in Winnipeg and

they're just at the heather and they see what Matt Dunstone's doing and they see what Kerri Einarson's doing and they're sitting there going, Okay, that okay, well I'm gonna recreate some of that 'cause that's that's what I know we need to do to to be successful.

Kyle Jahns (27:04)
a lot of emphasis on the on the daily training environment. I think it was you. You've heard a I think I've heard you say something along the lines of like Brier championships aren't one in March. They're they're one in like August. Can you can you walk me through that again for everyone to hear?

Nolan Thiessen (27:21)
Yeah,

I mean they're they're one they're won in August. They're one the August before. They're one the August before that, right? I mean it's you know, you don't have many of the Kerry Burtnyk's come out at twenty one and win the Brier I had to get that one in. Carrie Carrie's Carrie's my favorite of all time. I think for me

all of those results are from all of the hard work that gets you to that point, right? And it's it's the all of the training and all of the hard work and the and the everyt everything that you do leading up to those three hours for that final game is is what leads you to it. It's it doesn't just happen. It doesn't just, we're in the final and make a couple shots and we win. you know it's all of the

Everything that you do as a team, as an athlete, is leads up to that result.

Kyle Jahns (28:13)
So now we've talked about the shift that acts us to think differently about how athletes develop. And I think the next ask is how every level of curling can think differently about how the sport itself works. So the clubs work to serve their members. The provincial and territorial member associations, they work to serve their clubs. Curling Canada works to provide that national leadership, support, funding, resources. So everyone has their mandate and each is really working hard, obviously, to see the sport.

succeed. But you say that we can't have one succeed at the expense of the other, and it's a matter of changing how does my organization succeed to how does the curling system succeed together. Why is this shift important to you?

Nolan Thiessen (28:57)
Well, it's you know, you to it's two clubs in a city, they're not competing against each other, right? Well they shouldn't be competing against each other for people. They should all be they should both be trying to grow, right? It's not my club succeeds and your club fails. That's that that's not the mentality that we wanna have, right? More people in the club means the clubs are stronger. Clubs that are stronger means that our provincial associations and territorial associations are stronger.

Right. They they are they have more resources to support more facilities and clubs. you know, when our PTSOs are really strong, well then the sport curling in Canada is strong and curling Canada is strong. and and we're able to provide the platform for for growth as well.

I think it's it's understanding that we are part of something larger, right? We are part of the curling system. We are not just it's not just curling Canada ourselves. We run the Bryarns Goddies and we run the trials and and you know, we run podium pathway events and a national team program, right? Curling Canada is not just big events and high performance, right?

It's leadership, it's the ability to kind of bring everybody together. and it's understanding that we can't do it on our own, right? That's what I talk about when I say system success. Curling Canada making these four critical shifts helps like will improve our organization, but that doesn't improve the whole system.

Right. And that's that's what we're talking about. And and it's understanding it's challenging everybody to just sit there and go, Are we am I am I doing this just because then we're better? Right? Our sport shouldn't be binary. It shouldn't be, I'm gonna succeed, therefore you're gonna fail. Right? It should be how do we all succeed? How how do we all improve? And y like, think about it like this.

Our sport or our country used to be a place where, you know, you were born, you were raised, you stayed in a place, people didn't move very far, right? People now move all over the place, right? And so if you provide an amazing curling experience in your facility for for somebody, they may leave at twenty two and move completely across the country. You just talked about how you grew up in in small town Manitoba and now you live in Ottawa, but you had an experience at a small town club.

That then you moved to our nation's capital and you wanted to go have that same experience. So, right, it's not that that is what system success is, is somebody saying, We're providing an amazing curling experience here in our facility, and that person may be in our club for the rest of their life, or they may leave and go somewhere completely else. But our system is stronger because we introduced them to the game, we we

built that feeling of sense of belonging that that other people are going to share in that success in the future.

Kyle Jahns (32:04)
So does that add I guess the challenge I see with that, and obviously is the reason why we're having these conversations, is when I think of resources, right? Moving from a rural area, the resources that they have available to them in those facilities are very different from what I'm seeing in like an urban center. So how do you how do we balance that progression while not leaving one demographic or area of the country behind?

Nolan Thiessen (32:31)
Well, what I would say is sense of pride and sense of community is can be the it it may take a different form in an urban center versus a rural, but still having pride in your community is is is a valuable thing, right? Somebody who remains a member of a small town club and lives in a small town is

you know, maybe from community pride. But I can have community pride living in Edmonton area. Right. I can I can still be proud to live in Edmonton and proud to live when I was living in Winnipeg or Brandon and and wherever, right? It's that's that's what I mean where you kind of say, yeah, the the experience might be a little bit different, but what you're actually providing, that sense of

Pride, that sense of community, that sense of belonging is is still there and I you know

that sense of community. I mean, it's it's easy in a big center to kind of be lost, right? There's there's so many people. You can just be lost. But if that curling facility can provide a hub for s a certain amount of people to say, like, I I really appreciate all these other people and wanna wanna spend time with them, I think we're a better Canada if we do that.

Kyle Jahns (33:49)
So it's about sharing resources, sharing organization plans, communicating amongst each other. are are those the types of things that we need to do more of to help each other succeed? And I guess does that go against maybe natural instinct of where you had discussed maybe like, you know, clubs or facilities, maybe seeing them each other as competition. So that that is quite a big shift to have to kind of a mental hurdle to get over.

Nolan Thiessen (34:17)
totally, and I I mean I've I've jokingly said this actually maybe not jokingly, I I've said it as a thought experiment. I said, you know, if I want to go out for Italian food, I could go to a super high end Italian restaurant with like a Michelin star chef. And I can go to the Olive Garden or I can go to Sparrow, right? Or or or whatever.

And it's still Italian food, but it's a different experience. But but it's whatever experience that I was picking. So I've you look at golf, right? Golf provides golf. but there's golf clubs in every place that have different experiences, right? You can have a super low c cost, you can have

you know, high end, very expensive private clubs. They're all providing golf, but they're providing a bit of a different experience. So I've said, why couldn't clubs do that? Why couldn't there be five clubs in a major urban center and say, Okay, based on where we are in the city, we're gonna provide this. And based on where we are in the city, we're gonna provide this. And so you're providing two, you're still providing curling.

But you're providing different experiences, therefore you're not kind of competing for the for the sort of same demographics. that that's like that's strategic long term thinking that I'm not sure we've ever done as a sport that maybe we should.

Kyle Jahns (35:44)
So a stronger national sport, I guess ultimately, is it's not simply just the sum of like a stronger individual organization and and it's that connection ultimately. And I think that shared benefit kind of changes how we should think about the events that bring the sport together, which lands us on the last of our critical shifts, events from

Delivering championships to basically advancing the sport. I think for a long time, you know, the full play down fields they were the clearest indicators of a healthy curling system. but we know these events, I've gone to so many events over the country from the

Brier and international championships and the Olympics, all the way to small national championships and provincial championships and play downs, and they all require this huge effort of volunteers and schedule making and venue organization and budgets and and everything. And you're kind of saying that the championship itself should be more than that. It should be for something larger. So can you take me through what exactly you mean by that or what your thoughts are?

Nolan Thiessen (36:54)
I just think you know, when you when you look at events and and obviously from a curling candidate perspective, there's you know, we've got the Brier and the Scotties that you know and and world championships every year that are the financial engine of our sport as are of our organization as well. But when you look at our event, we try to provide more than that, right? We're providing

you know, a volunteer opportunity for people. We're providing community pride. We try to take our sport to areas. like use our platform to take our sport to new to new people. we're providing a high performance opportunity. We're we're declaring a Canadian champion. I think in general every event should should have the conversation. What are we? Why are we doing this?

What is it for? And sometimes running an event is to help fund the rest of the season, right? There's a lot of clubs that will run a couple of bond sp major bont spiels that provide funding for the rest of the year for the for the club. Maybe your event is because you were providing an opportunity for stick curlers.

Right, people who can't get like maybe physically can't get in the hack anymore. we're providing an opportunity for people to stay engaged in the sport. I think that's what I mean by I just say just think about what the event is, what it's trying to do, why are we running it, right? And there could be a couple of things. It could be an A, B, and a C, but why are we running it?

If we're just running it to run it because if we've ran it last year, then can we change it? Is there something else? and and that's where that's just a a shift in thinking of of saying, I'm just gonna recreate what we did last year. And and you I mean, we've done it aga again, you talk about the b the two big ones. Our events look a little different now than they used to.

There's still something special about them. There's still that that those rivalries across the country, but they look a little bit different. They sound a little bit different. They and and that's okay. That's that's what we need to do. But the events shouldn't just be ran because we feel like running an event. The events should be ran because we're trying to do we're trying to accomplish something.

Kyle Jahns (39:23)
And to to build on that a little bit, I think of what we what Curling Canada has done with S SOC events in in recent years where there's now we partner with the local facilities and clubs to find ways to introduce different avenues of youth curling, hit draw tap, girls rock. Like it's all about finding ways to engage people who wouldn't traditionally be interested in curling or haven't had that opportunity to

be able to experience it on the ice locally and then get to come into the venue after and then see what it's all about, right? And that's so exciting and it builds on on what the sport is is about. It's not just a bottom line or bringing people in to to host a championship. And I think that's type the type of cultural critical shift rather that we're that we're discussing here when it comes to events.

Nolan Thiessen (40:16)
Yeah, definitely. It's inspiration, it's aspiration. There's you know events can check a lot of boxes more than just who won the event. and I think if if your events are just to well it's just to just to see who who won an event, well then then you're kind of just providing a competition. But if your events are, you know.

meant to do a few things to support the sport and and improve it in the future. now we're getting somewhere.

Kyle Jahns (40:45)
So you suggest like some events may need to evolve or even make way for something different if they no longer strengthen the system meaningfully. I think that's a pretty significant statement for a sport that's like really deep with its traditions.

So how

Nolan Thiessen (41:02)
Yeah.

Kyle Jahns (41:03)
how do you decide whatn what an event has served its purpose and needs to change?

Nolan Thiessen (41:08)
you would never make a a a massive change very quickly, but it's it's taking a step back and going, Okay, what is this doing? Why do we run this? Are we running this because we ran it last year? Or are we running this because it's providing something, right? And I think there's there's a lot of opportunity there when you take it

a step back, you talk to a bunch of different people and you you get some consensus on this is why we're doing this. This is what it is accomplishing. and sometimes it's it's just hey, we're still gonna run this, but we're gonna shift some of the resources from here over in this one, because this one if we do, you know, if we if we give a little bit more r resources over here, that has an opportunity to really grow and and do something else.

It's just having those conversations. It's having the guts to have those conversations, right? Like you said it's I mean, we'll get to it when we talk in that chapter about the the championship events. I'm sure there'll be some wall like Nolan, are you sure you want to say that? But in in my mind it's just I'm not saying it because we have to change it. I'm saying it because I want to have the conversation. I I wanna actually say, Okay, why? Why? What are we doing this? Why are we doing this?

Let's all agree on it, so then then we're all working on you know, w so then in the future we're on the same page about w why this is and what this is accomplishing.

Kyle Jahns (42:38)
You've spent a lot of time while writing this asking us and and challenging the question to think about the sport differently. I'm curious, did you have like any assumptions about Canadian curling that you had to personally reconsider as you were writing this?

Nolan Thiessen (42:55)
I think I don't know if there's anything like writing this that I needed to reconsider. I think I've had a lot of I I know personally I've felt a lot of growth over the last number of years, both working at Curling Canada and then and then in the CEO role. and and some of it is is just sitting there and going, Okay, so what? Like

What are we trying to do? Or what is what could we actually do to accomplish this, right? And and it goes back to one of the first things we talked about in this episode where you're talking about everyone sort of kind of wanting the same thing in Canada. You know, I came in wanting all of those things as well. But then I I didn't want to just say, well, it you know, we can't do this, right?

I I didn't want to I didn't want to ever sit there and go, well, we don't have enough resources to help facilities, so we're gonna do nothing with facilities. Right. I I I think it's important as as leaders in in curling Canada to sit there and say, We wanna help, right? We've got our supporting your curling journey every step of the way. That doesn't mean paying for your journey. That doesn't mean, you know, we're the we're the bank for the whole system. That doesn't mean

what we say goes. It just means we know these all of this is important. And so how do we help it? How do we support it? How do we how do we create the how do we create the conditions for the sport to thrive? Right. And that's the those that's probably the the biggest shift that I've had. Right. I probably came in after I was playing and was like, I think I I think we should do this, this, and this, right? And

Now I've I've taken a step back and said, no, no, it's how do we create the right conditions to do those things, right? And then and and then and then that's where success comes from.

Kyle Jahns (44:47)
So I know we've discussed a lot this week, but what would be one thing that you hope a listener takes away from this discussion?

Nolan Thiessen (44:53)
I would probably go back to the value one, the one where everyone says, you know, I'm you know, I'm a part of this system. I care about curling because of the value it brings to me. and I want to provide that value to more people. that's probably the biggest one that I would hope creates creates agreement and alignment with people.

Kyle Jahns (45:14)
Thank you, Nolan. Our next chapter, we're gonna dive into the weeds a little bit more. We are gonna start with grassroots development and the question at the heart of this first shift: how do we create experiences that people don't just have access to but genuinely value? I'm looking forward to that next week on the Future of Canadian Curling podcast.